Advertisement
Yesterday I found out, that upon filing a provisional patent, you are allowed to use the phrase "patent pending" on your product. Wow!
According to the book: Patent Pending in 24 hours.
www.amazon.com/gp/product...527-3428954
What's a provisional patent cost these days?
According to the book: Patent Pending in 24 hours.
www.amazon.com/gp/product...527-3428954
What's a provisional patent cost these days?
Advertisement
Advertisement
-
Re: Provisional Patents
Sat, December 10, 2005 - 12:13 AMHi Paul,
The filing fee for a provisional application is $100 for a small entitity. But you should be very careful when filing a provisional application. Many people think its a cheap and easy way to get a patent... its not. As a patent attorney, I almost never recommend filing a provisional application. The only ones who really benefit from a provisional filing are inventors whose invention will be more valuable at the END of the patent term -- 20 years from now -- than at the beginning of the term (usually pharmaceutical inventors) The provisional applcation is not reviewed by the patent office, so every day you wait before filing your original (non-provisional) application delays the issueance of your patent...
When you file your provisional application, you'll want to make sure you have all the disclosure in the application that you will need to support the claims you will file in your original application... if you don't then you won't get the benefit of the provisional applications filing date. Thus, it takes just as long to prepare the provisional application as it does an original application. If you've paid your attorney $8000 to draft the application or spent the 50 or so hours you would probably need to draft it yourself, what's an extra couple of hundred dollars to file it as an original application? If your invention is that good, you will want to begin excluding others from manufacturing your invention as soon as possible.
Since I am an attorney I need to include the fine print:
(The information provided herein is not intended to be legal advice, but merely conveys general information related to legal issues. The information provided is not guaranteed to be correct, complete, or current. I make no warranty, expressed or implied, about the accuracy or reliability of the information provided (although I'm usually right). You should not use this information as a substitute for retaining competent legal counsel (I usually research things better when I'm getting paid).
Furthermore, this communication is not intended to create any legal relationship between you or any user thereof and me. -
-
Re: Provisional Patents
Sat, December 10, 2005 - 2:23 AMThe only other time I would suggest a provisional filing is if there is an impending risk of someone comming out with the same invention and you feel you need to get what ammounts to a time stamp from the patent office. Provisional applications ARE faster to write, so if your neighbor is working on the same thing and is pretty close, then go ahead with the provisional.
Wouldn't you agree Rick? -
-
Unsu...
Re: Provisional Patents
Sat, December 10, 2005 - 7:30 AMProvisional applications ARE faster to write....
I have to disagree. If you really understand the patent system and 112, you will realize that a good provisional needs just as much prep time as a regular utility.
Dalm. -
-
Re: Provisional Patents
Sat, December 10, 2005 - 8:58 AMI will go with you on that, as I do not REALLY understand 112, nor do I care to...That is why I hire attornies!
:)
I have studied just enough to do searches, understand what can and can't be patented, and to realize that patenting something yourself is not, except for in the most extreme of circumstances, a good idea.
Thanks! -
-
Re: Provisional Patents
Sun, December 11, 2005 - 10:10 PMI believe the real reason we have provisional patent practice in this country is because of pressure put on Congress by the U.S. Pharmaceutical industry. Prior to having provisional practice, foreign companies could get an extra year at the back-end of their patent, which is usually more valuable in the pharmaceutical industry than a year on the front end. It worked like this... A foreign company would file for a patent in their home country, then they would have a year to file for their U.S. patent.... This delays the issuance of their U.S. patent for a year... but also delays the expiration for a year.
With provisional practice, a U.S. pharmaceutical company can file the provisional application and then wait a year to file its original application and get the same benefit as the foreign companies get by filing overseas first.
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Provisional Patents
Tue, December 13, 2005 - 3:10 PMThanks Rick! I appreciate your expertise. Jeremy did say something that does seem pertinent to my situation.
"The only other time I would suggest a provisional filing is if there is an impending risk of someone coming out with the same invention and you feel you need to get what amounts to a time stamp from the patent office."
As a software author, I can develop concept products in a month or two. I need to be able to release these software systems to potential clients, customers or maybe even investors, without having to worry that some else will see my concept and say, "lets do that too."
This is why the patent pending label appeals to me so. It tells potential competitors that their efforts may be in vein.
If I released the product without the provisional patent, then it would be my responsibility to create some other set of legally reliable proof-of-creator-ship-records.
As for the the complexity of provisional patents as opposed to full application, this makes sense. But I still like the disclosure process, for while I am confident that I can conceptualize what rights I am seeking as a patent holder, and be able to disclose this clearly in full detail, there is a whole set of other procedures, language and etiquette that only patent attorneys are versed in, which is necessary when filing, for a patent to be approved.
Keep in mind, I'm not talking about a single idea. I have MANY of these software concepts. Also when released under a provisional patent, the one year leeway, would also allow me some time to determine whether or not the concept was worth filing the full application for.
For instance, take the priceline.com example. They received the patent for the reverse merchandising method, where customers entered an order for what they were willing to pay and airlines would sell at that discounted price as was available.
My ideas are similarly this simple. Am I wrong to think that I could describe in detail the priceline.com concept, or some similarly simple concept, with a single flowchart and one page of narrative? -
-
Unsu...
Re: Provisional Patents
Tue, December 13, 2005 - 6:45 PM"My ideas are similarly this simple. Am I wrong to think that I could describe in detail the priceline.com concept, or some similarly simple concept, with a single flowchart and one page of narrative? "
Actually, this misconception as to patents in general is something I have seen from inventors who try to write their own applications.
Patents do not cover ideas, they cover embodiments. The idea of the reverse auction, while simple, may not be patentable. It is the various steps neccessary to implement a reverse auction that are.
This reminds me of a case I took over from the inventor who wrote it. All he did was claim a device that did something but never claimed what that device was or how it did it. The examiner was rejecting the heck out of him.
So, a provisional application describing a reverse auction generally may not support a later utility requiring an actual embodiment and certainly may not be detailed enough to allow an adequate distinguishing over the prior art.
Of course we are talking generally here, so your mileage may vary.
Dalm. -
-
Re: Provisional Patents
Thu, December 15, 2005 - 3:44 PMThanks Dalm! This really helped a lot. What you said, "Patents do not cover ideas, they cover embodiments," really struck home. This makes perfect sense, "It is the various steps necessary to implement a reverse auction that are" important.
Are there any other major areas examiner's keep an eye on?
Any other immediate-rejection type mistakes you could share? -
-
Unsu...
Re: Provisional Patents
Thu, December 15, 2005 - 6:36 PMNo problem.
One of the other major things I have seen is that the general public (pro se) have no clue what a claim is or how to write one.
I loved this claim: I claim an improved wrench. I claim my invention is great.
Way off.
The other thing I have seen is the patent describes X and Y but only claims X. The patentee runs around saying I have a patent on Y so I can stop someone, right? Wrong.
Just some of the more amusing pro se mishaps.
Dalm. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Provisional Patents
Thu, December 15, 2005 - 6:37 PMActually, funny story...
When I was an examiner at the PTO, I was trying to get this pro se guy a patent (yes, a friendly helpful civil servant).
So, we are talking on the phone and this guy's kid is screaming and he is yelling at the kid the whole time.
He has a patent though.
Dalm.
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Provisional Patents
Mon, December 19, 2005 - 12:33 PMDalm said, "The other thing I have seen is the patent describes X and Y but only claims X."
Thus, you may make more than one claim! Of course for a patent to be effective, the claims should be kept to a minimum and cover only the critical aspects of operation. In this way, if only the critical aspects are covered, then it becomes difficult or hopefully impossible to file a similar patent without infringing on the original claims. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Provisional Patents
Mon, December 19, 2005 - 6:08 PM... if only the critical aspects are covered, then it becomes difficult or hopefully impossible to file a similar patent without infringing on the original claims.
I do not mean to be difficult, but this is not 100% accurate, although I think I know what Paul means.
In actuality, there is no such thing as a patent infringing another patent. Indeed, it is black letter law that a second person can get a patent on something that infringes a prior art patent.
I am guessing that Paul meant it becomes difficult or impossible to introduce another product that does not infringe.
I am not sure if I agree with less claims is more, although I am reminded of an old Patent Office addage to the effect that a patent attorney that cannot describe an invention in less than 20 claims does not understand the invention. I grant you all the caveat that this is in the mechanical arts. I have no idea about these chemical/biotech cases with hundreds of claims.
Dalm. -
-
Re: Provisional Patents
Tue, December 20, 2005 - 10:18 AMI also do not agree that less is more. I always try to push the line with regards to my broadests claims, knowing they will probably be rejected... but if they make it through the PTO... my client gets the presumption that they are valid.
Also, this opens up the whole prosecution history estoppel can of worms.... Should I craft a number of claims, knowing many will later be withdrawn but the ones that are not will not have to be ameded? This allows the issuance of "clean" claims to which prosecution history estoppel would not apply. -
-
Re: Provisional Patents
Tue, December 20, 2005 - 1:01 PMWow! Now that's some serious strategy there!
Thanks Rick for sharing you knowledge!
-
-
Re: Provisional Patents
Tue, December 20, 2005 - 1:07 PM"I am guessing that Paul meant..." Dalm, I appreciate your patience.
You said, "A patent attorney that cannot describe an invention in less than 20 claims does not understand the invention."
Thanks! This advice will really save me some time!
-
-